>> Alfred Adler began his work with families in the 1920s, often working with children, their parents, and teachers in front of an audience in one of 22 child guidance centers he established in Vienna. His model for open forum family counseling was brought to the United States by his colleague, Rudolf Dreikurs, and it was perfected in the work of Oscar Christensen and Manford Sonstegard. Adlerian family therapy starts with an understanding of the family system -- or family constellation -- based on the impact of birth order. Adler was the first to note that the birth position of a person seemed to have a strong influence on how the individual fit in and the sense of self that developed. Indeed, there were often more similarities between the oldest children in two different families than there were between the oldest two children of one family. It is not the birth order itself that matters, however, but rather the interpretation that the individual gives to the birth order, and that is reinforced within the family system. Rudolf Dreikurs systemized Adler's approach to families and provided a teleological framework for understanding adult-child behaviors. "Teleology" is the study of final causes, and in the case of families, it involved a discovery of what purposes or goals might be motivating the behaviors and interactions in the family system. In this video Dr. Bitter interviews Joel and his two children. Joel is married, but his wife was unable to be present due to her work schedule. Dr. Bitter first gets a sense of the family constellation from the father, and then proceeds to focus on the problem interactions in an effort to discover the mistaken goals that might be operating in both the children and the parents. >> Dr. Bitter: Well, Joel, I really appreciate you coming in today. And I'm looking forward in a little while to meeting your children. Tell me about who all is in the family. I know that your wife isn't able to make it today, but tell me about everybody in the family. >> Okay. Well, my wife wasn't able to make it, as you said. But there's her and me, and then we have two children. Seth is six and Abby is three. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. >> Seth's in first grade and Abby goes to a babysitter still. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay, very good. And give me your wife's first name. >> Stacy. >> Dr. Bitter: Stacy, okay. Now, do either of you have grandparents or anybody living in the area? >> No, we have no relations in the area. We have extended family kind of spread out all over the place. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. >> But none very close by. >> Dr. Bitter: So for the most part, all of you function pretty much as a nuclear family? >> Yes. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay, very good. Now, if you were going to use three adjectives to describe each of your kids, what would it be? >> Let's see. For Seth I'd say "sensitive," "ornery." >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. >> And "funny." >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. So he has a good sense of humor? >> Yeah. With Abby, "stubborn." And -- >> Dr. Bitter: Now, just out of curiosity, while we're talking about it, what would for you be the difference between "stubborn" and "ornery"? >> Well, with Seth it's more of a sense of mischief. I think he kind of likes to -- I don't know -- he's having fun with it more. And with Abby, she digs in her heels sometimes. She just decides "This is the way I'm going to do things." And it's not a matter of fun; it's will. >> Dr. Bitter: So of the two of them, she's the tougher kid. >> She is. She's the stronger willed one. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. >> She's also very sweet. I'd use that word. >> Dr. Bitter: So sweet and you said stubborn. And what was the -- >> I didn't come up with a third, I don't think. "Smart." >> Dr. Bitter: Smart. Okay. That's great. Well, I don't know. There may be very little or maybe a lot -- I don't know -- but what is something you'd like to see going better at home? >> Well, I don't think it's huge problems that we have, but we do seem to have kind of an ongoing struggle, ongoing thing we're dealing with where the kids don't listen very well if we're trying to go somewhere, whether it's school and the babysitter in the morning, or even, you know, just to the store -- whatever -- they won't listen when we say, "It's time to go." They won't get ready. With Seth, we have trouble with him just getting very excited, very wild. And he runs around and squeals, he talks baby talk, and he won't listen, take direction. And it's like he doesn't hear us at those points. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. >> And Abby kind of feeds off of that. The main thing we have trouble with, with her is just that she gets very, very stubborn. Sometimes she does not want to get going in the morning and she will just sort of refuse to move. >> Dr. Bitter: Refuse to move. Okay. >> Sometimes she doesn't want to eat or she doesn't want to stay at the table. She'll get to the table and want to leave. And so we deal with a lot of mealtime stubbornness, too. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. So just to make it a little bit easier, why don't we pick the last time one of these problems came up and tell me how it went, kind of step by step. >> Okay. >> Dr. Bitter: Maybe something even today, I don't know. >> Today went great. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. We count our blessings. >> That's right. But I think I'll pick -- this happens often this way -- but probably a couple of days ago getting ready for school. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. >> The kids were fast asleep when I went in to get them up. And I get Abby -- I turn on her light and talk to her first because she takes a while to wake up. And then I go get Seth, who usually wakes up faster. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. >> In this case, she just buried herself in the bed, did not want to get up. Seth was fast asleep, didn't want to get up, either. But I finally got them up. Seth gets himself dressed. I help Abby. And Abby didn't want to come to breakfast. So she just dug in her heels, stayed in her room. I finally got them going. We tried to get them to take less time with breakfast, but they took forever. And it was getting late, and I finally had to drag Abby away from the table, fussing and screaming, and drag them into the bathroom to brush teeth. And she wouldn't put on her shoes. And Seth didn't put on his shoes, but he does that in the car sometimes. So then we were late getting out the door and we forgot his backpack, had to run back in -- a variety of things. So we ran late. I was grouchy and they were fussing. >> [Multiple speakers] >> Dr. Bitter: Give me a sense of that grouchiness. What did you sound like? Like, what were some of the words you said to the kids to get them going? >> I go into lecture mode. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. Well, give me your best stuff. >> I don't know if I can. Kind of have to work myself into it. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. >> I'll just say, you know, "It's time to get going. You should have had your teeth brushed by now. You need to be done with breakfast. No, you can't have any more cereal. You need to get down now. Okay, that's it -- I'm taking away your bowl. Okay, we're going to brush teeth. Get back here, we're not going that way. We're going to brush teeth." >> Dr. Bitter: Now, right in the middle of all of that, how are you feeling? >> Kind of worked up. I'm feeling -- I don't know -- I'm feeling a lot of stress. >> Dr. Bitter: Right. I can hear the impatience. And you're feeling kind of stressed out. Would you feel at this point that you are -- are you angry yet? Or are you just feeling irritated and highly annoyed? >> Irritated, highly annoyed. Not angry yet. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. Now, is there a point in any of this where you wind up feeling defeated? >> There is a point sometimes when I get angry. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay, tell me about one of those. >> When I get angry, it's a fairly fine line for me between highly frustrated and annoyed, and angry. >> Dr. Bitter: Right. >> When I get angry I just -- I pick them up and place them where they need to be. I stick the toothbrush in Abby's mouth. >> Dr. Bitter: Is she crying at that point? >> No, not usually. She's just refusing. She may be whining but not crying. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. >> And I just kind of push them out the door. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. But is that -- [inaudible] maybe not -- is it more often that you're just highly irritated or annoyed, or more often that you're at that point where you're angry and moving them and pushing them out the door? >> Usually it doesn't get to that. Usually I'm just annoyed. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. >> I mean, one situation comes to mind where I got really angry, and that was getting them -- I was taking them to Seth's taekwondo, and we were running very late. We got outside. He didn't have his backpack with his stuff in it. I had to run in and get it. He followed me in. He came out screaming about something. I think it was that he didn't have his rabbit. And I spent the first half of the trip to taekwondo just yelling at them, and I don't usually yell. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. All right. And so that day you were really upset. >> Yeah. >> Dr. Bitter: Now, tell me a little bit with -- I know that Stacy isn't here not to speak for herself, but how do things go, would you say in general better for her or easier or harder or about the same? >> About the same. We have noticed that if it's just one parent or the other that sometimes the kids do better; when we're both there, the kids will get wilder on us and be less cooperative. But it doesn't seem to matter which one of us it is. Stacy is more rigid about discipline. I tend to be fairly easygoing most of the time. That's my take on it. And I just have that point I reach where I've had enough. But she reaches a point where she's had enough sooner. >> Dr. Bitter: Yeah, yeah. In essence, her way of going about that, it's very possible that's going to work better for her in the long run. Because what the kids are going to learn with you is that it takes more to get you going. And since it takes more to get you going, they have to work harder and start earlier. So if the two of you, if you're going to try and work dad up into a fever pitch, then you got to get started early and you got to stay persistent with it, which is interesting because two of the words you use to describe them both require persistence -- "stubbornness" and "orneriness." Well, while I'm listening to you, I'm trying to think, "Okay, what is the process that's going on in terms of goals that the children might have?" And it seems to me like there's a pretty good pattern established which the kids have figured out -- especially in the morning -- that if they slow dad down, they can keep kind of generating the attention that they're looking to get. Because to a kid, dad being upset is just as good as dad being thrilled. Attention is attention -- doesn't matter whether it comes positive or negative. And there's also the start, though, and perhaps it's showing up more strongly in Abby because very often first children have a modicum of interest in being the good kid and the second child being who they want to be when they want to be it. So it's possible that Abby's heading towards power struggle. She may not quite be there yet but as I'm listening, those are my guesses about it to start with. And so I'd like to just spend a few minutes and talk with the kids and see what they think. So, you're Seth, huh? Is that right? And is your name Abby? >> Uh-huh. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. Well, thank you for coming in. Did you get to hear your dad and me talking earlier or no? >> Yes. >> Dr. Bitter: You did? Okay. Well, I just want to ask you a few questions about what your dad was saying. We'll see how it goes. So Seth, I hear that you may be the best first grader I know at being really slow in the morning. Are you the best slow person in your house? >> Kind of fast, kind of slow. >> Dr. Bitter: Kind of fast, kind of slow. Okay. So how are you fast, and how are you slow? Tell me how you do that. >> Well, I kind of eat my breakfast fast slow. >> Dr. Bitter: You kind of eat your breakfast fast and slow? >> Uh-huh. >> Dr. Bitter: Yeah. I hear that -- >> And it's hard to wake up. >> Dr. Bitter: It is hard to wake up. Yeah. So I hear that sometimes when you're getting ready to go to school that you sometimes forget your book bag. >> It's called "backpack." >> Dr. Bitter: Or backpack, okay. And you sometimes -- when you're going to karate you sometimes forget the stuff you need to take with you there. >> Yeah. Well, you can call the backpack "backpack book bag." >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. Now, why do you think you're such a good forgetter? No idea? I have an idea; would you like to hear it? >> What? >> Dr. Bitter: I wonder if sometimes you forget these things just to see if you can get your dad to stop what he's doing and run and get them for you. Never? >> I just kind of forget. >> Dr. Bitter: You just kind of forget. Okay. Now, one of the things that -- one of the things that's interesting is that your mouth just said "no," but you were smiling a bit. Let me try something else. When you're slow in the morning and your dad has to keep you going, do you know why you do that? Why he has to kind of push you along? Don't know? Could it be that you want to let him know that you can go at your own speed no matter what? >> Yeah, and I can race him all the way down to the mailbox. >> Dr. Bitter: You can, huh? >> And I can race him all the way up the driveway and all the way down. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. So you can go fast when you want to. >> Yeah. >> Dr. Bitter: And when you're going slow, why do you do that do you think? >> Well, I'm not running that time. >> Dr. Bitter: No. Those times you're just being real slow, huh? Okay. Abby, let me ask you a couple of questions, okay? Now, sometimes I hear you don't like to eat dinner; is that right? >> Yeah. >> Dr. Bitter: Yeah? Do you know why you don't like to eat dinner? >> Why? >> Dr. Bitter: I don't know for sure. I have an idea. Would you like to hear it? >> Because I'm just resting. >> Dr. Bitter: Because you're just resting then? Could be. >> She's resting sometimes or just is not be hungry. >> Dr. Bitter: Might not be hungry. That all could be true, but I have another idea. Could it be, Abby, that you want to show your mom and dad that you're only going to eat what you want and they can't make you eat anything? >> No. No. >> Tomatoes. >> Dr. Bitter: Tomatoes. Okay. Okay. >> She used to like them. >> Dr. Bitter: You like tomatoes? >> I do not, not, not like tomatoes. >> Dr. Bitter: What do you not like? >> I do not like carrots. >> Dr. Bitter: You don't like carrots. >> You probably like the sauce kind. >> Dr. Bitter: Do you like any vegetable? >> She definitely likes broccoli. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. >> I don't like snap sugar beans. >> Dr. Bitter: You don't like snap sugar beans either? >> No, not even carrots. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. All right. >> Not even crunchy, just soft. >> Dr. Bitter: Now, what do the two of you do to help out around the house? Do you either of you help out? >> Well, I clean my room. >> Dr. Bitter: You do? >> I make my bed. >> Dr. Bitter: You make your bed? You do that every day or just some days? >> I did it yesterday. >> Okay. Who wants you to most make your bed, mom or dad? >> I want me to make my bed. >> Dr. Bitter: You want to? Oh, that's the best kind. >> [Multiple speakers] >> But when we're changing sheets I kinds of don't really know how to change sheets. >> Dr. Bitter: No, that's a hard one, huh? Who helps you with that? >> Mama. Usually mama. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. Well, I've asked the two of you a lot of questions. Do you have any questions you want to ask me? >> Well, I have a bunny. >> Dr. Bitter: You have a bunny? What's your bunny's name? >> Bunny. >> Dr. Bitter: Just bunny? >> Bunny Hoppy. >> Dr. Bitter: Bunny Hoppy. That's a good name. >> I have a green bear. >> Dr. Bitter: You have a green bear? >> And his name is Green Bear Green Bear. >> Dr. Bitter: That's a good name. >> Green Bear Green Bear. >> Dr. Bitter: All right. >> They're very accurate names. >> Dr. Bitter: That's great. Abby, you have anything else you want to say before we stop? >> Well, I spent the night at church. We got our pillows and our sleeping bags. >> Dr. Bitter: Say it again because this ear has a hard time hearing. Say it one more time. >> Well, I spent the night at church. We had our sleeping bags and our pillows. >> Dr. Bitter: Oh, when you spent the night at the church you had sleeping bags and pillows? >> And we couldn't find the switch until the morning. >> Dr. Bitter: Wow. >> The light switch. Yeah, we spent the night last weekend at church. We slept in sleeping bags. >> Dr. Bitter: I bet that was a lot of fun. >> And that room had to move the ladder. >> Dr. Bitter: Okay. >> And the high chair. >> And they -- well, they had some kind of lamp outside and daddy just pulled that in. >> Dr. Bitter: Yep. Very good. Worked out, huh? Okay. Well, thank you very, very much for coming. I appreciate it. You want to shake hands, Abby? >> And my bunny's in the car. >> Dr. Bitter: You can sit for just a moment. There we go. Nice going. Okay.